I was all ready to interrupt all this serious discussion with one of my RubySue and Fluffy posts, just for Wendy, but then some old friends of my sister’s husband came into town, and decided that TONIGHT was the only night they had to visit with my sister’s husband (and of course my sister, because that is how it works) so… SO MUCH FOR DATE night. Uh, perhaps I should clarify here. this was NOT my date night with them. They are strictly monogamous Mormons, at least here on earth. In fact, if my sister had her way, it would ALWAYS be that way, except for the fact that my sister’s husband has been married before, in the Mormon temple, and since that wife is dead, I guess my sister is stuck with her in the big C kingdom.

Needless to say, that’s a topic of discussion we don’t broach much. I’m not fond of gnashing of teeth and wailing. Anyway, the date night was for THEM. I was just the designated RubySue Sitter.

And here I was looking forward to some new material.

Instead, I spent the time designing a Web site, which was time well spent, but not nearly as entertaining as RubySue.

Sorry to disappoint. Back to the “ardent” discussion, I guess.

You know, through this discussion with Todd, and of course over the past few weeks as California prepares to vote on whether or not homosexual couples can marry, I have done some pretty heavy thinking. There has been a lot roaming around in my mind, and one of the biggest things is my desire to continue to write on this blog. Why? Because I have reached a place in my life where I pretty much want to practice “live and let live.” I don’t believe Mormonism is true, and bigots and narrow-minded simpletons annoy me, and that will always be true, but for the most part, most of the Mormons I know are kind, good, loving people. Most of them are Mormon by nature of their birth and family inheritance, and while many of those believe wholeheartedly, if they were raised as, say, Catholics, they would also probably still be Catholics, just like they are Mormons.

And because I feel this way, and I have many Mormon friends and relatives, I really don’t WANT to be in this position anymore. I even considered stopping this blog completely, because I’m really tired of defending myself, and fighting off angry comments, and explaining myself over and over again. Why bother, when it really doesn’t matter that much to me WHAT you believe, as long as you respect the right of others to do the same.

And therein, of course, is the problem. It is the reason why I cannot and will never stop. Because while I do respect the right of Mormons to believe and live as they see fit, they do not return that same right to others. How sad is this?

The Mormons have donated MILLIONS of dollars to defeat Proposition eight, and in fact are the LARGEST donors of money to vote for a proposition filled with bias and inequality. So all of you who were jumping up and down when I said I was going to close this blog, sorry to disappoint. But I will NEVER stop as long as YOU don’t stop.

Interestingly enough, there is a large amount of division among Mormons about this very issue. I find this so encouraging that I want to applaud all those who have had the courage to stand up against the hierarchy and say, “Hey, wait a minute.”

This, you see, is a church that has pretty much admitted that they KNOW homosexuality is not a choice. Still, they are determined to deny happiness and respect to those who are BORN this way. Why? It simply makes no sense.

The LDS Church has a long history of persecution and bias themselves. Against THEM, folks. It still exists today. They say you can’t understand someone else’s pain until you have walked a mile in their shoes, and I just have to think here, “Look, if the shoe fits…” Walk that mile, LDS Church leaders. Respect for Mormon beliefs has been hard to come by, and your religion is a very, very long way from being accepted.

For example, Todd has asked me why I am FOR gay marriage, but against polygamy. Of course, HE is for polygamy and ardently vehemently against gay marriage. He would rather see twelve-year-old girls married off to old men, only to go on to live a life of servitude and subjugation, forever having babies and sharing your husband with other women so he can get HIS glory and “rightful” blessings.

Have I twisted this properly, Todd? It’s made you look pretty damn bad. And yet CAN you defend your position? I shall clarify here, before you get your garmies in too big of a twist. See, today’s mainstream LDS Church does not practice physical polygamy. They have tried to distance themselves from the offshoots of Mormonism that DO practice polygamy, even laying claim to the name “Mormon.” But these fundamental Mormons ARE fundamental offshoots of Mormonism, and it can be looked at no other way. They are living the LDS Church tenets the way that Joseph Smith, Jr., taught them.

And it is in THESE circumstances that the abuse and perversion happens. I know that today’s Mormon males do not have more than one wife, except of course, if they are allowed to marry another one in the LDS Temple. Now this only happens when a spouse has died or there has been a divorce, but it DOES happen, and they DO believe that ALL of them will be together in the Celestial Kingdom. Polygamy is STILL an important part of the Mormon belief system.

Thus, they can’t exactly vote against polygamy, now can they? It’s the reason that so much abuse was allowed to go on for so many years in Pligville. It makes one seem rather hypocritical to go after someone who is living a lifestyle that you yourself believe in–even if you aren’t practicing it right now.

So, here we are in 2008, and gay couples have been given the right to marry in the state of California. And OH, Lordy, the religious reich, er, right, is up in arms over that. And the biggest player in the fight to make sure that homosexuals are NOT given the same rights as other Americans is the Mormon Church.

And I don’t get it. The problem, they say, is that allowing gay marriage is a huge danger to the “institution” of marriage itself, which should only be between a man and a woman. Apparently, allowing homosexual couples to marry would threaten that.

Right here I have to stop. Because, WHY? I mean, seriously, have they even THOUGHT about this? These people are GAY. They are looking for OTHER people who are also gay. The only thing a gay man wants from a woman is friendship, a shopping partner, and possibly someone to sit next to during a vital mani/pedi. But he does NOT want to steal your wife. I can assure you of this.

So how does this threaten you? Todd, have YOU even thought about this? How do you look yourself in the mirror and claim to be a religious man, when you act and react with such negative, bigoted responses to others being afforded the same rights that you apparently take for granted.

But, of course, you are a white priesthood bearing male, and apparently that makes you special. Can you PLEASE explain to me why you believe this?

And why you believe this so-called “true” church has the right to shamelessly stick their very grubby fingers in the political waters and yet claim a religious exemption, because they are a CHURCH. This behavior is shameful and abusive, and YOU Todd, and all the others like you are supporting it because you believe you are better than everyone else, and thus entitled to blessings that others cannot obtain.

And don’t tell me you don’t believe this, because if you didn’t, you would NOT support your church trying to dictate love and marriage to millions of California residents.

So, please, Todd, explain to all of us how you can support this.

And my friend Nick wants to know if he can vote on YOUR marriage. Since you think you can vote on his, I think it’s only fair.

A few things first.

I am SOOOO amused that Todd has “responded” to K, but isn’t the slightest bit curious about who he is. Is that the difference between men and women? I’d be Googling the hell out of my computer, trying to figure it out.

Also, I LOVE this comment by Emily Pearson.

I resisted the whole “anti-Mormon” label for a long time. And I was doing fairly well with making peace with that silly church and going on my merry emotional way, until Prop 8. Now they have seriously pissed me off. You know the saying, “If you are not for us, you are against us?” Well, I am most definitely NOT for them - I am 100% against them. Since against means anti, I guess I have to accept that I am anti-Mormon. And I have no horns growing out of my head and I only breathe fire on Tuesdays, I am still a good person, I still love, I still have a beautiful and rich spiritual life, and I am, at present, anti-Mormon. Not really anything to be scared or ashamed of - although we grew up equating anti-Mormons with rabid kitten killers. Not so - we are just normal folks who are not FOR.

Excellent comments and sentiments, Emily, and I think I shall embrace them. The truth is as you state it. Anti-Mormons equated rabid kitten killers, at least in our experience. LOVE that.

Now, on to Todd. (FYI, I waited a few days before responding out of respect for Todd, respect which he thinks I don’t have. He is wrong.) But the truth is, I am disappointed with his response. I expected some valid arguments and facts that I would have to at LEAST research and back up. None of that in this. Just more of the same. Talk in circles, and make accusations, instead of addressing the FACTS.

Of course, when you can’t front a solid argument, there is nothing left BUT to try the smoke and mirrors.

I also find it interesting that it seems to bother Todd that I am very GOOD at what I do here. Of course, if I were NOT good at it, none of this would have come about. What fun would that be? If it makes you feel any better, Todd, I cannot sew very well, and my baking skills are minimal. If we were having a bake off, I would lose. So, on to the argument.

Natalie,

There is so much ridiculing, mocking, disrespecting, half-truth telling and spinning contained in your over five years of blogging that I hardly know where to begin.

Let’s start at the very beginning. A very good place to start… When you read you begin… Uh, sorry. I’ll try not to lapse into musicals. Spinning? I get motion sickness fairly easily, so believe me, I do not spin much. In FACT, one would think I would be better at it, having been raised in the SPIN GRAND MASTER CHURCH of the world. Remember that cute little quote, “Some things that are true are not very useful.” You remember the speaker, Boyd K. Packer. Mormon apostle? Todd, the reality is I don’t spin. I just tell the truth. You’re just pissed off because I bring up the “not very useful” facts. And the “fact” they aren’t “USEFUL” doesn’t make them untruths or spinning. They just happen to be the portion YOU don’t want to hear or want out there. Sorry, I’m a whole package kind of girl. As for “disrespecting,” I only owe respect to those who respect me back. PLEASE give me enough respect to treat me like I have half a brain. Oh wait, there’s that whole patriarchy thingie. A man is supposed to be the other half of my brain, right?

There is also so much insight and stark honesty about mormons and mormon culture, especially in Utah, that I thoroughly enjoyed re-reading your posts. I really should take the time to read all of the comments. Maybe someday.

Well, thanks! All the comments are not “useful,” but comments they are, so I leave them there. Some of them even call me names and accuse me of rabid kitten killing (hee hee, thanks Emily). But guess what? They are part of the picture, so I don’t delete them. The only ones I have deleted are those of trolls, people who thrive on just destroying boards, blogs, etc. I agree, they are not useful, and perhaps that could tie in with Boyd K. Packer’s “not useful” idea, except I am very upfront about the fact I have deleted them.

So, in all honesty, my opinion of you as an anti-mormon is mixed. You’re certainly not the extreme sign-carrying, garment waving, peace disrupting anti-mormon that you harp against in some of your posts. But, you do spew quite a bit of anti-mormon rhetoric within the walls of this blog.

I will never wave someone else’s underwear around in a public setting. You have my complete and total word that I will NEVER do this. I don’t say “never” very often, but I know this will never happen. As for your comment, I take exception to your words, harp, and spew. See, those are not “nice” words, and you are using them to try to degrade my behavior. I know a bit about language. I suspect this harkens back to the fact you don’t like that I tell the truth, and tell it well. So I’ll ignore it for now.

Here are a few examples:

Oct. 7th, 2004 - You list several things the missionaries don’t mention: polygamy (a recurring theme), Brigham’s Adam/God theory (another recurring theme), and Blacks and the Priesthood (Brigham’s racist tendencies is another recurring theme). These are transparent anti-mormon themes. I’m curious to know how you rationalize that they’re not.

So you are saying these things are NOT true? That these are “lies, half truths, and spinning?” The problem here, Todd, is that you have practiced the good old “LOOK OVER THERE” tactic. You aren’t addressing the actual TOPIC, and instead, are trying to just dismiss my concerns, by calling them transparent anti-Mormon themes. Does this again go back to the “useful truth” theory? Because you have not proved that what I said was WRONG, but just that you think it is an anti-Mormon theme. Until you prove me wrong, you have no basis in fact, so I cannot give this argument credence. You just don’t want this stuff out, so you call it anti when someone brings it up. I note you don’t say these things AREN’T true. You just try to say it’s an “anti” theme. But that doesn’t make them LIES or spinning.

Let’s talk about Adam/God, shall we? Now that might be a debate. This is not.

Jul. 25th, 2005 (as one example) - You repeat your slogan: the church won’t leave me alone, so I won’t leave the church alone. This is overt acknowledgement that you (and other ex-mormons) actively pursue an agenda against the church.

Nope. Sorry, doesn’t fly. I do NOT EVER go to the Church and try to get them, their children, their pets, and the mold growing in their refrigerator to come back to church. NOT ONCE. And yet, it does not stop THE CHURCH from coming after me. You, yourself, Todd are part of that “agenda.” How many times have you made your sly little comments about having “the truth” and wanting to “share” it. The “Church” is the aggressor here, therefore, they have the agenda. Otherwise, you are saying that THEY have the right to pursue me, but I do not have the right to reject it. If the Church ever left me alone, I wouldn’t write about it, because I would have nothing to write about, now would I? They call. They come to my house. They pursue my children. They do NOT respect my wishes, yet you expect ME to respect them? How does that work?

Nov. 26th, 2005 - An example of you lambasting a pro-mormon commentator about misrepresenting some data (in this case church growth figures), and then you proceed to misrepresent the same data. A blatant lie on your part? Maybe you didn’t read the SLTrib article in full? Maybe an honest mistake? The article clearly stated that church membership continues to increase (not decrease as you indicated). The article did indicate that as a percentage of Utah’s population, church membership was declining. A half-truth or simply spin on your part?

This requires some explanation. Please, show me what it is that I misinterpreted. I certainly don’t lie, and the fact you just ACCUSED me of lying? Well, that does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy toward you. That aside, you are very VAGUE. Please, give me exact details. What did I say that was A BLATANT lie?

You seem to really like to verbally lambast people, and I must say you’re quite good at it. I really like it when you ignore subtance and lambast people because they cain’t spel.

You want I should be bad at it? If, say, I was not so good with words, would we even be having this discussion? It would be oh so easy for you to dismiss me if I were not a decent writer. And I only lambaste those (please note spelling!) who choose to make fools of themselves and come to me on the attack. What substance have I ignored? Yet again you are being very vague, and not giving examples. SHOW ME THE SUBSTANCE…..

Feb. 26th, 2006 - Another blatant half-truth. To be a believing mormon, one doesn’t have to rely on faith and faith alone. If you really claim to have researched mormonism before dropping out, you have to know there is a huge body of solid, tangible evidence for the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith’s story. That is not to say that faith doesn’t play a huge role, I believe, by design.

Um, Todd? Where? Tell me WHERE that evidence is, because it sure as hell isn’t available anywhere but on a few Mormon Web sites. There simply is NO factual basis for the Book of Mormon, and plenty to disprove it, and if you want to go further with that, you are going to have to give me example. Simply SAYING there is a body of evidence means nothing. You show me your evidence, and back it up. Then we’ll talk. There is also plenty to prove that Joseph Smith was a con man, and he molded THIS CHURCH in his own image. After all, how ELSE do you explain THREE DIFFERENT versions of the First Vision? Please, address that. No more skirting around the truth.

This, Todd, is no debate. You have barely touched on any actual subject, and instead are using the “smoke and mirrors” act to try to make me look bad. You MUST give us the substance, and the truth. Oh, if only that were so easy, because the TRUTH is, you don’t have it.

May 28th, 2006 - You dedicate a whole post to actively opposing proxy baptism.

Because I don’t agree with it, as I stated. A “disagreement” does not make one anti. Of course, we could turn the tables here. The Mormon Church has spent MILLIONS of dollars to defeat equality in marriage for everyone. That, of course, is directed at the gays. So, should we say the Mormon Church is anti-homosexual? (Please note, I do not have millions of dollars, and if I did, they would not be wasted fighting proxy baptism.)

And how YOU cannot see the arrogance of baptizing thousands of holocaust victims in the same waters as those of their murderer, Adolph Hitler, is beyond me.

Aug 30th, 2006 - Another post on polygamy, including the *shocking* revelation that “they practice it everyday, in mormon temples all over the world.” In another post you indicate polygamy is a MAJOR tenet of mormonism. These are blatant lies at worst, and half-truths at best. I refuse to distance the church from polygamous beliefs, but your insinuation that the church is actively practicing and preaching polygamy is simply disingenuous. Or, maybe I just haven’t been paying attention the last four-and-a-half decades.

So the fact that it IS practiced, every day, in Mormon temples is irrelevant? How is my statement a blatant lie? You can’t seriously be trying to say that men do not go into the temple and get sealed to more than one wife every day, because IF you are saying this, YOU are the one who is lying. And a bit delusional to boot.

So, if it has feathers, a beak, webbed feet, and quacks…. guess what? It’s a duck! And a duck by any other name is still a duck.

And what shall we call you, Todd? A few things come to mind, but I will refrain. What I will say is this response from you makes me sad beyond words. I remember you as a happy, smiling, intelligent boy. I don’t remember the arrogance and the pompous self-righteousness. How sad. You obviously have done very little research into the history of the Mormon Church, and instead have chosen to accept the spin-doctored version of “absolute truth.”

This could not, in any shape or form, be considered a debate. You never addressed facts. You just generalized.

So why exactly do you not like the anti-mormon title? If the spew fits, wear it!

Your old friend,
Todd

I am completely certain that I never knew the real you. While you are supporting this Church that claims not to get involved in politics, yet has spent MILLIONS of dollars to defeat Proposition 8 in California, consider the honesty of that, please. Are you capable of that?

Or is your mind hopelessly, irrevocably sewn shut. Tight.

I suspect the latter.

Farewell.

(Note: I wasn’t sure what else to call this, for fear of being tagged “anti” something or other, so it’s just Todd’s Post. Sorry for the lack of creativity. I’ll make up for it.)

Natalie,

There is so much ridiculing, mocking, disrespecting, half-truth telling and spinning contained in your over five years of blogging that I hardly know where to begin.

There is also so much insight and stark honesty about mormons and mormon culture, especially in Utah, that I thoroughly enjoyed re-reading your posts. I really should take the time to read all of the comments. Maybe someday.

So, in all honesty, my opinion of you as an anti-mormon is mixed. You’re certainly not the extreme sign-carrying, garment waving, peace disrupting anti-mormon that you harp against in some of your posts. But, you do spew quite a bit of anti-mormon rhetoric within the walls of this blog.

Here are a few examples:

Oct. 7th, 2004 - You list several things the missionaries don’t mention: polygamy (a recurring theme), Brigham’s Adam/God theory (another recurring theme), and Blacks and the Priesthood (Brigham’s racist tendencies is another recurring theme). These are transparent anti-mormon themes. I’m curious to know how you rationalize that they’re not.

Jul. 25th, 2005 (as one example) - You repeat your slogan: the church won’t leave me alone, so I won’t leave the church alone. This is overt acknowledgement that you (and other ex-mormons) actively pursue an agenda against the church.

Nov. 26th, 2005 - An example of you lambasting a pro-mormon commentator about misrepresenting some data (in this case church growth figures), and then you proceed to misrepresent the same data. A blatant lie on your part? Maybe you didn’t read the SLTrib article in full? Maybe an honest mistake? The article clearly stated that church membership continues to increase (not decrease as you indicated). The article did indicate that as a percentage of Utah’s population, church membership was declining. A half-truth or simply spin on your part?

You seem to really like to verbally lambast people, and I must say you’re quite good at it. I really like it when you ignore subtance and lambast people because they cain’t spel.

Feb. 26th, 2006 - Another blatant half-truth. To be a believing mormon, one doesn’t have to rely on faith and faith alone. If you really claim to have researched mormonism before dropping out, you have to know there is a huge body of solid, tangible evidence for the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith’s story. That is not to say that faith doesn’t play a huge role, I believe, by design.

May 28th, 2006 - You dedicate a whole post to actively opposing proxy baptism.

Aug 30th, 2006 - Another post on polygamy, including the *shocking* revelation that “they practice it everyday, in mormon temples all over the world.” In another post you indicate polygamy is a MAJOR tenet of mormonism. These are blatant lies at worst, and half-truths at best. I refuse to distance the church from polygamous beliefs, but your insinuation that the church is actively practicing and preaching polygamy is simply disingenuous. Or, maybe I just haven’t been paying attention the last four-and-a-half decades.

So, if it has feathers, a beak, webbed feet, and quacks…. guess what? It’s a duck! And a duck by any other name is still a duck.

So why exactly do you not like the anti-mormon title? If the spew fits, wear it!

Your old friend,
Todd
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….So bring it.

Todd, my old high school friend, says:

Name: Todd |

Has feathers, a beak, webbed feet, and quacks….

Would you like links referencing all of the mormon practices you’ve shown in this blog that you oppose?

How come you guys are so anti-being-called-anti-mormon?

BTW, you guys are great at nit-picking around the periphery, whilst never really addressing the substance of an issue. But that goes back to my duck analogy…

Love,
Todd

Yup, give me links. Give ME substance. Point out WHERE I have been anti. See, the thing is, just because I don’t BELIEVE something, or find it silly, does NOT MAKE ME anti.

Use your head and get over your persecution complex.

For example, I find Paris Hilton silly. And yet, no one has EVER come to this blog and complained about me being anti-Paris. And it is NOT because I have not written about Paris Hilton, because I HAVE. So don’t try that tack. It won’t work.

I also find Tom Cruise a whackjob, and have been fairly ardent about my desire to free Katie Holmes. Yet no one has EVER come to this blog and accused me of being anti-Tom Cruise. Again, not because I haven’t blogged it, but MAYBE because they realize that just because I think Scientology is silly and Tom Cruise a bit fanatic, it does NOT MAKE ME ANTI ANYTHING.

Ahem. Sorry.

So don’t be stupid. If you want to discuss particular issues, discuss, Todd. But you never do. You just dance around them, with your circular logic, and then call everyone who doesn’t agree with you an ANTI-MORMON. Them’s fighting words, Brother Todd.

Tell me WHAT it is you think I have said that makes me anti-Mormon. Be specific. And I shall respond to your argument, if you should have one, which I doubt you will.

Because, like in a court of law, the BURDEN of proof lies with YOU. YOU are the one claiming to have the only true thing. Not me. So YOU are the one who has to prove it is true. What? What’s that you say? You CAN’T? Or it’s just a burning in the bosom thingie? Give me a break. That’s the stuff that makes people drink cyanide Kool-Aid and throw their children off buildings. All in the name of GOD, because they FELT it in their heart, and they prayed about it, and God TOLD THEM the cyanide was good and the fall wouldn’t hurt.

You don’t GET to tell me that I’m ANTI because I don’t agree with you.

You cannot prove that one thing about Mormonism is true, and yet you never cease to come here and act all smug and self-righteous, and say, “Geez, leave the poor Mormons alone,” when the POOR MORMONS aren’t leaving ANYONE alone. They never HESITATE to claim to have THE ONLY TRUE THING. Of course, they can’t prove it.

Don’t accuse me of doing things I am not doing, and not back them up with an argument.

So bring it, Todd. What ANTI things have I said? Prove they are anti. Prove that YOU are right and I am wrong.

Good luck with that.